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Post by Michael Capasse on Oct 3, 2020 10:06:26 GMT -5
You Get Around TownIn the long list of gun dealers and stores that might have sold these bullets, two came up. John Thomas Masen owner of Mason's Gun Shop, 7402 Harvey Hines Blvd., Dallas. John H Brinegar, owner of The Gun Shop, 11448 Harry Hines Blvd., Dallas. There was a more common 6.5 MC ammo available at HL Green CO, a large dept store in the area. Further inquiry with a former employee there, does not identify the bullet as Western Cartridge. Richard Lopez described that ammo to the FBI as Italian made with the letters SIM or SMI at the base. The only 2 stores in the Dallas area selling this kind of military ammo, were pulling the load for hunting. John Brinegar told the FBI he had bought them from West Virginia, and sold a portion to the other dealer John Masen. He had only purchased one case, sold 20 boxes to Masen, sold boxes to others, and had about 6 boxes left in the summer of '63. Neither Brinegar nor Masen remember Lee Oswald in their store, or having sold him these bullets, they both operated their store alone. HL Green Stores did not handle Western Cartridge in '63 and Brinegar told the FBI only a specific 6.5 bullet works in these guns. FBI was aware only a certain casing can be reloaded for the Italian Mannlicher-Carcano. It amounts to no solid proof Lee Oswald was able to buy these bullets in the Dallas area in 1963. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CE 2694 | Report of Investigation of Possible Target Practice by Lee Harvey OswaldIn an effort to locate a source of supply of the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano, Western Cartridge Company, ammunition where Lee Harvey Oswald purchased ammunition for his Carcano rifle, a telephone canvas was made of all the business in the Dallas and Irving area listed in the current Dallas Irving classified section of the telephone directories under listings ammunition, guns, hardware stores, pawnshops, department stores, discount stores, sporting good stores, and Army and Navy surplus stores.
This telephone contact is made with each such place located and each person contacted was questioned as to whether they had ever handled the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano, Western Cartridge Company, ammunition and if they knew of any source handling this type of ammunition.
Only the two following places were located as a result of this telephone canvas: John Thomas Masen owner of Mason's Gun Shop, 7402 Harvey Hines Blvd., Dallas. John H Brinegar, owner of The Gun Shop, 11448 Harry Hines Blvd., Dallas.
"...Mr Brinegar stated the 6.5 mm rifle was rather common in the Dallas area and he felt that the larger gun dealers, pawnshops, sporting goods, and H L Green Company stores would have handled the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano, Western Cartridge Company, ammunition as he recalled seeing ads for this 6.5 mm ammunition.
He explained that there were a number of different 6.5 mm types of ammunition but that only the ammunition manufactured by the Italians and the 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano could be used in the Italian Carcano rifle. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Different Markings in Different StoresOn March 25, 1964 Richard C Lopez of 4427 McKinney Avenue Apartment A Dallas. TX, advised he formally was employed by the H L Green Company. He stated work first as a clerk and was later made a salesman in the gun department in October or November 1963, exact date not recalled.
He stated to his knowledge H L Green Company never did handle any 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano, Western Cartridge Company, ammunition for the gun. Lopez stated the store did handle the Carcano rifle and a 6.5 Italian ammunition for the gun. He advised as he recalled the base of the shell casing had SIM or SMI stamped on it and that all the ammunition was of a military load (CE 2694 pages 12 -15)
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Post by Michael Capasse on Oct 3, 2020 10:06:47 GMT -5
Masen JarredIn the fall of 1963, Frank Ellsworth was an agent for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. He was investigating a stolen gun ring in the Dallas area. The FBI agent on the case was James Hosty. The suspect he was investigating and had gone undercover to pursue, was John Thomas Masen. Gaining his trust, Ellsworth learned Masen had a contact that was a Captain in the ranks of FRT Hood in Kileen TX In charge of ordinance, Capt. George Charles Nonte Jr., could get any type of military weapon available at the base. On Nov 18, 1963, 4 days before the assassination, a deal was made with Nonte and Masen for a delivery. Unbeknownst to Ellsworth the FBI had intercepted the shipment and arrested the driver, Donnell Darius Whitter Whitter was a local mechanic, one of his customers was Jack Ruby. The other man arrested was Lawrence Miller. As the FBI took these guns off the streets, they became more interested in what Nonte could provide on Masen. John Masen had contacts to "The Minutemen", a right wing militia group, involved in a 2 nd Cuban invasion. Further, a Secret Service document of Jan 17, 1964, documents Masen heavily involved in anti Castro groups in the area. ...Agent Ellsworth states that during his association with Masen, Masen had mentioned [Manuel] Rodriguez [Orcarberro] as being a Cuban who was attempting to buy arms-machine guns, bazookas, and other heavy equipment-from Masen. Masen also mentioned a George F. Parrel, a Cuban National who was an associate of Rodriguez and who was also attempting to buy arms from him. Masen informed Agent Ellsworth, while Ellsworth was undercover, that Rodriguez and Parrel were leaders of the local organization of the Cuban Student Directorate (ORE); also, that they were members of the Segundo Frente del Escambray which is known in America as Alpha 66.
Alpha 66 is known as an active commando type organization which has recently made raids on Cuba. Masen informed Ellsworth that Rodriguez and Parrel had made purchases from him; that they presently have a large cache of arms somewhere in Dallas; he did not know the location .... John Masen was arrested Nov. 20, 1963, just 2 days before the assassination. He was released on minor charges soon after. Arjan Hut did an excellent job documenting this incident here.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In SummaryIn looking for the 4 bullets, the strength of the right wing anti Castro incentive in Dallas is revealed. The FBIs hand on gun running of automatic weapons into the Dallas area, was dropped from the Government inquiry. Yet James Hosty and Dallas Police Officers arrested men tied to an anti Castro group, involving Gen Walker. Just 4 days before the president's visit, it is incredible there was no mention in the investigation or 26 volumes. All of this without getting any closer to where Lee could have bought his 4 bullets. If he bought them at all. One shot was lost when it missed, another shot disintegrated when it hit, and a third was left un mutilated without proof it was fired that day. There is no proof the bullet, CE 399, passed thru both men causing the damage claimed. A residual record reflects no proof as to where Lee Oswald could have purchased these bullets in Dallas. This specific type of military load ammunition was limited in quantity and availability at the time. Doubts still remain that the bullet and scraps of fragments found were fired from "Oswald's Rifle" that day.
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Post by Michael Capasse on Oct 21, 2020 9:10:23 GMT -5
Mark of the ClawDiscrepancies that exist with this rife are related to specific markings that are left behind on the shells. The bullets are loaded into a magazine then pushed into the top of the gun. As the shooter works the bolt action, the bullets are fed up into the chamber and the shell is expelled. Because of this action, there is a finger inside called the "magazine follower" that pushes from the bottom. From the lowest bullet, so that its mark is left only on the last shell in the gun. The FBI found CE 543 (the dented shell), had 3 other sets of marks at the base distinct to that shell alone. And another set on shell CE 141 (C8) not identified with the rifle. Dr. Michael Kurtz:"Hoover noted that Commission Exhibit 543 (FBI Number C6), the case with the dent, had "three sets of marks on the base of this cartridge case which were not found [on the other casings]." The case, according to Hoover, had also been loaded into and extracted from a weapon three times. The only marks linking the case to Oswald's rifle were marks from the magazine follower. As noted above, CE 543 could not have obtained the marks from the magazine follower on 22 November, since the last round in the clip must have been left in the chamber. Furthermore, Commission Exhibit 543 lacks the characteristic indentation on the side made by the firing chamber of Oswald's rifle." ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CE 3968"The extractor and ejector marks on C6 as well as on C7, C8, and C38 did not possess sufficient characteristics for identifying the weapon which produced them. There are also three sets of marks on the base of this cartridge which were not found on C7, C8, C38, or any of the numerous tests obtained from the C14 rifle."
"It was not possible to determine what produced these marks.... Another set of follower marks were found on C8... These marks were not identified with the C14 rifle..." A memo from Hoover (FBI) to Rankin (WC), June 2 1964, explains the discrepancies they found, and although it is not explicit in the memo, these markings from the magazine follower are indications of the shells having been previously fed thru the chamber of the gun. British researcher, Chris Mills, found that the dent could be replicated by loading the shell, empty. Wherever the marks on these casing came from, they are not consistent with having been fired that day. Other faults of defect and capability continue to raise serious doubts about this rifle being the actual murder weapon.
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Post by Michael Capasse on Oct 21, 2020 9:10:54 GMT -5
Missing the MarksmithRonald Simmons was the Chief of the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the Ballistics Research Laboratory of the Department of the Army. The Warren Commission called upon him as the weapons expert in regards to the rifle. He testified March 31, '64, following Robert Frazier (FBI).Evidence is lacking in the practice needed in attaining proficiency to operate this gun. Proficiency, is knowing what to expect from the weapon in terms of kick, sights, and accuracy. It had a two stage trigger, loose, without a constant pull, it slips, then becomes very slight to pull. Described below as something needed to master and know what to expect. Practice would be essential. The scope wobbles, the bolt sticks, the rifle jammed at some point during the shooting evidenced by a dented shell. Cleaning and maintaining the gun, in addition to how the rifle "travels around" is also lacking proof. Lee hadn't been a Marine in 4+ years, and barely qualified as a marksman after 2+ years of service. The gun was a piece of crap he bought in the mail. ----------------------------------------------- PROFICIENCYMr. EISENBERG. When you say proficiency with this weapon, Mr. Simmons, could you go into detail as to what you mean-- Do you mean accuracy with this weapon, or familiarity with the weapon? Mr. SIMMONS. I mean familiarity basically with two things. One is the action of the bolt itself, and the force required to open it; and two, the action of the trigger, which is a two-stage trigger. Mr. EISENBERG. Can familiarity with the trigger and with the bolt be acquired in dry practice? Mr. SIMMONS. Familiarity with the bolt can, probably as well as during live firing. But familiarity with the trigger would best be achieved with some firing. Mr. EISENBERG. Why is there this difference between familiarity with the bolt and familiarity with the trigger in dry firing? Mr. SIMMONS. There tends to be a reaction between the firer and the weapon at the time the weapon is fired, due to the recoil impulse. And I do not believe the action of the bolt going home would sufficiently simulate the action of the recoil of the weapon. ---------------------------------------------------------------- TWO STAGE TRIGGERMr. SIMMONS. Yes. But there are two stages to the trigger. Our riflemen were all used to a trigger with a constant pull. When the slack was taken up, then they expected the round to fire. But actually when the slack is taken up, you tend to have a hair trigger here, which requires a bit of getting used to. Mr. McCLOY. This does not have a hair trigger after the slack is taken up? Mr. SIMMONS. This tends to have the hair trigger as soon as you move it after the slack is taken up. You achieve or you feel greater resistance to the movement of the trigger, and then ordinarily you would expect the weapon to have fired, and in this case then as you move it to overcome that, it fires immediately. And our firers were moving the shoulder into the weapon.
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Post by Michael Capasse on Oct 21, 2020 9:11:13 GMT -5
Shims, & Sights, and a Bolt that SticksI think the biggest question is why? - Why use a gun like this? Living in Texas in 1963, he could buy an anonymous gun in another part of the state. Gun Shops were everywhere. Something else not always connected here by researchers, is the illegal gun trade in Dallas. Billy Lovelady was arrested in Jan '63 for skipping a court date on a gun running charge from '61 Gun dealer James Mason was arrested as part of a gun running plot 4 days before the assassination. He was later released but evidence shows he was part of an automatic weapons operation out of Frt Hood Texas. There were better guns to be had, and perhaps by a means not as obvious as mail order tracing. The overall condition is awful. No modifications, or conditional improvements were done by Lee to better the rifle. --------------------------------------------------- SHIMS NEEDEDMr. Eisenberg: Was it reported to you by the person who ran the machine-run tests whether they had difficulties with sighting the weapon in? Mr. Simmons: Well, they could not sight the weapon in using the telescope, and no attempt was made to sight it in using the iron sight. We did adjust the telescope sight by the addition of two shims, one which tended to adjust the azimuth and one which adjusted an elevation. ---------------------------------------------------- IRON SIGHTS The scope on the rifle tended to move as they worked the bolt. They could NOT sight the rifle. Sighting a rifle entails calibrating the scope, to get the rifle's sights and its bore in alignment. FBI had to mount shims at the base of the scope to both steady and level the aperture. That scope is extremely cheap and would be expected on a BB gun or other amateur or juvenile weapon. Mr. EISENBERG. How did he do with the iron sight on the third target? Mr. SIMMONS. On the third target he missed the boards completely. And we have not checked this out. It appears that for the firing posture which Mr. Miller--Specialist Miller uses, the iron sight is not zeroed for him, since his impacts on the first and second targets were quite high, and against the third target we would assume that the projectile went over the top of the target, which extended only a few inches over the top of the silhouette." Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Simmons, were your marksmen instructed to aim at the three targets in consecutive order? Mr. SIMMONS. The marksmen were instructed to take as much time as they desired at the first target, and then to fire--at the first target, being at 175 feet--to then fire at the target emplaced at 240 feet, and then at the one at 265 feet." ------------------------------------------------------- BOLT STICKSMr. EISENBERG. Do you think a marksman who is less than a highly skilled marksman under those conditions would be able to shoot in the range of 1.2-mil aiming error? Mr. SIMMONS. Obviously considerable experience would have to be in one's background to do so. And with this weapon, I think also considerable experience with this weapon, because of the amount of effort required to work the bolt. Mr. EISENBERG. Would do what? You mean would improve the accuracy? Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. In our experiments, the pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the target, whereas with greater proficiency this might not have occurred. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Off the TargetHere is a demonstration of a Carcano with a bolt that sticks. Simmons only said, "we tended to move off target", but never described specifically what that meant. Any movement of the gun requiring the re sighting at the aperture is essential to time. If Lee gave up on the scope it makes no sense to be packed or continue to be mounted on the gun. Simmons' team made no effort to use the iron sights, and had no testing results on their accuracy. They used stationary targets and all the men took as much time as they desired before beginning. All in all the results are dismal, the team had issues with a moving scope, and a bolt that sticks on a rifle that could not be sighted. There were further issues of rust and corrosion in the barrel and firing pin, concerning the team of capability of the weapon. The markings on the shells are not consistent with the rifle, and there is no proof the stretcher bullet at Parkland was fired that day. It leaves nothing to prove the rifle in evidence was actually the murder weapon, and nothing to affirm Lee Harvey Oswald as the assassin.
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Post by Michael Capasse on Oct 24, 2020 9:26:57 GMT -5
Pitted Rust and CorrosionRobert A Frazier was the FBIs weapons expert that reported to the Commission on the condition of the murder weapon. He testified there is no way to know how much use the rifle has had, and judged in just "fair" condition. Like Ronald Simmons, Frazier records enough inadequacies in the rifle operation to question proficiency and capability. The rifle was well oiled when received by the FBI, but rust on the firing pin was also a concern at the Army shooting range. There was no explanation as to who oiled or maintained the rifle before 11/22, and there was no cleaning kit in Lee's possessions. Mr. SIMMONS. They had each attempted the exercise without the use of ammunition, and had worked the bolt as they tried the exercise. They had not pulled the trigger during the exercise, however, because we were a little concerned about breaking the firing pin. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CE 2974An August 29, 1964 memo from Hoover to Rankin, further expresses the concern over accumulated rust in the weapon. No authority is recorded as having oiled the rifle, yet it is described as well oiled, and somehow maintained. Extensive use on the firing pin, and a bolt relatively smooth, a stock that is worn and scratched . What doesn't make sense is the rust. Frazier said one round would remove the rust, yet CE 2974 described some rust inside the barrel. "It should be noted that the firing pin of this rifle has been used extensively as shown by wear on the nose or striking portion of the firing pin and further the presence of rust on the firing pin and its spring may be an indication that the firing pin had not been recently changed prior to November 22, 1963.
This rust would have been disturbed had the firing pin been changed subsequent to the formation of the rust. In this regard the firing pin and spring of the weapon are well-oiled and the rust present necessarily must have been formed prior to oiling of these parts.
No oil has been applied to the weapon by the FBI however it is not known whether it was oil by any other person having this rifle in his possession. As noted during the examination of the firing pin that numerous shots have been fired with the weapon in its present well oiled condition as shown by the presence of residues on interior services of the bolt and on the firing pin." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Robert Frazier | WC TestimonyMr. EISENBERG - Does this weapon show--how much use does this weapon show? Mr. FRAZIER. The stock is worn, scratched. The bolt is relatively smooth, as if it had been operated several times. I cannot actually say how much use the weapon has had. The barrel is--was not, when we first got it, in excellent condition. It was, I would say, in fair condition. In other words, it showed the effects of wear and corrosion. Mr. McCLOY. When you examined the rifle the first time, you said that it showed signs of some corrosion and wear? Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Mr. McCLOY. Was it what you would call pitted, were the lands in good shape? Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the lands and the grooves were worn, the corners were worn, and the interior of the surface was roughened from corrosion or wear. Mr. McCLOY. Could you say roughly how many rounds you think had been fired since it left the factory, with the condition of the barrel as you found it? Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I could not, because the number of rounds is not an indication of the condition of the barrel, since IF A BARREL IS ALLOWED TO RUST, ONE ROUND WILL REMOVE THAT RUST and wear the barrel to the same extent as 10 or 15 or 50 rounds just fired through a clean barrel.
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Post by Michael Capasse on Oct 24, 2020 9:27:22 GMT -5
Proficiency is KeyJournal of Criminal Law and Criminology Bullet Holes & Chemical Residues in Shooting Cases By Joseph T Walker"The barrel is generally made of iron or steel, rifled with from four to seven lands and grooves, twisting to either the right or left. Frequently it is fouled from previous shots, rusted, or oiled.
It is therefore possible that a bullet fired from such a gun may carry with it traces of any or all of the materials present on the interior of the gun barrel-iron, rust, oil and metals, as well as powder and primer fouling of previous shots."-------------------------------------------- The presence of rust in the barrel after the assassination raises serious doubts of the weapon having been used. Evidence of oil and lack of some kind of maintenance to the rifle is also suspicious of the gun being planted. Element traces not found on the stretcher bullet, also lacking, blood, hair, flesh or cloth suspect the bullet was not fired that day. Problems with the bolt sticking, the sighting of the weapon, and the denting of a shell all contribute to these apprehensions. Further, the cramped area of the snipers nest and the inability to stand for an early shot, all lack sufficient proof as the source. Add another important element needed to execute this action; proficiency. Not being a sharpshooter, but knowing what to expect from this piece of crap rifle before taking on the task. No trained sniper or rifleman would without knowing their capability. There is no evidence Lee Oswald ever practiced or properly maintained the rifle. In the 7 months he owned it, he did no changes or modifications to make the operation of the gun smoother or more accurate. Executive Session | Jan. 27, 1964Mr. Rankin: We have gone over all of that to try to find out where he could ever gain the proficiency that he appears to have had in the shooting that was done. The Chairman: He was a Sharpshooter in the Marines. Mr. McCloy: in the Marine Corps? Mr. Rankin: Yes. Mr. McCloy: That is above ordinary. Mr. Rankin: But that is quite a ways below expert. Mr. Rankin: …there are a good many stories about his practicing with a gun, you know, around various rifle ranges and so forth, we have checked those out and none of them stand up at all. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ One Last Test (May 06,1959 MCAS | El Toro CA)Oswald scored one point above the minimum for the lowest grade. Marksman Qualification = 190 Oswald Score = 191 “To become qualified as a sharpshooter the Marine Corps is of the opinion that most Marines with a reasonable amount of adaptability to weapons firing can be, so qualified. Consequently a low marksman qualification indicates a “rather poor shot” (Vol 19 pages 16-18)
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Post by Michael Capasse on Oct 24, 2020 9:27:45 GMT -5
On Your MarkCE 3968 described markings on the shells that are not consistent with having been fired from the rifle. The FBI brought these to the attention of the Commission June 02, 1964. Robert Frazier testified Mar. 31, 1964, that he had not found any identifying marks. That conclusion is buried in a massive amount of paperwork, the face of the record reflects otherwise. Mr. EISENBERG - Were you able to find identifying marks on the brass as well as the primer on this cartridge case? Mr. FRAZIER - No; I did not notice any marks on the brass portions outside of the primer. Eisenberg is asking about CE 543 (C6), the dented shell. He was specific in his question re: IDENTIFYING marks. Frazier is not being honest in his answer. There were several questionable marks not identified with this rifle reported by the FBI. He testified there were none. In this frame, the Commission avoided addressing other markings not consistent with the murder weapon. Next Eisenberg put into the record, that markings on the stretcher bullet (CE 399) and 2 bullet fragments found in the car, were fired from this rifle to exclusion of all other weapons. That was done from the markings left on the bullet as it traveled thru the barrel. These "signature markings" are not consistent with a completely under maintained, corroded, and pitted rifle such as CE 139. Although Frazier got it into the record in 1964, things changed drastically when the HSCA tried and failed to achieve the same results. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Robert Frazier | WC TestimonyMr. EISENBERG - How are you able to conclude that a given bullet was fired in a given weapon to the exclusion of all other weapons, Mr. Frazier? Mr. FRAZIER - That is based again upon the microscopic marks left on the fired bullets and those marks in turn are based upon the barrel from which the bullets are fired. The marks in the barrel originate during manufacture. They originate through use of the gun, through accidental marks resulting from cleaning, excessive cleaning, of the weapon, or faulty cleaning. Mr. FRAZIER -The microscopic marks which were used in the identification, after being observed through the microscope and making the comparison and the identification; were photographed, and this photograph shows a portion of the surface of that bullet, showing parallel lines extending from the left side of the photograph coming up to the hairline and continuing across on the right side of the photo graph, these microscopic marks being very fine grooves and ridges on the surface of the bullet, very coarse ridges on the surface of the bullet, and in between size scratches left on the bullet by the barrel of the weapon. Mr. EISENBERG - Mr. Frazier, running through the middle of the exhibit there seem to be finer lines on the right-hand side than on the left. Could you explain that, the reason why the lines come out with more detail or that there are more lines on the right side than on the left? Mr. FRAZIER - Those marks could be the result of the bullet striking some object after it was fired, or they could be the result of changes having taken place in the barrel. For instance, even a piece of coarse cloth, leather or some other object could have polished the surface of the metal slightly and left infinitesimal scratches which, when enlarged sufficiently, actually look like marks on the bullet. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ HSCAThe House Select Committee on Assassination, did its own comparison testing of rifle to bullets and failed. They were not able to do reasonable comparisons to the original FBI tests, or additional testing they did while active. Over usage from testing has destroyed the ability to prove this important piece of evidence as the murder weapon. After almost 60 years, the government failed at the one chance to resolve discrepancies, questions and doubts in the rifle's authenticity. "...The panel also compared CE 567 with bullets it test-fired in the CE 139 rifle. The panel was unable to identify its tests with CE 567. The panel attributed this to changes in the bore caused by repeated firing of the rifle by the FBI and the Infantry weapons Evaluation Branch of the U.S. Army to test its accuracy, (76) as well as deterioration of the surfaces because the rifle had not been properly cleaned, lubricated, and maintained. For the same reasons, the panel was unable to identify its test-fired bullets with those of the FBI. The panel's test-fired bullets also could not be identified with each other, probably as a consequence of the poor condition of the barrel."
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Post by Michael Capasse on Oct 27, 2020 9:21:14 GMT -5
Maggie's Drawers If the quality of the rifle is a factor in assessing its capability, additionally the examining of Lee Oswald, does not equate to the character of a gun enthusiast of any kind, or someone that would show any pride or care in the condition of the rifle. Or someone expected to take the time to modify the rifle for improvement. Nelson Delgado was a first cook in the Army at Fort Hancock, N.J. when he testified in 1964. Wesley Liebeler was the questioning attorney for a deposition at a US Courthouse in New York, on April 16 th. Delgado had joined the Army in 1960 where he remained and had since joined Delta Battery, in Hazlet, N.J. He was called because he knew Lee Oswald in early 1959, while stationed in Santa Ana California. Prior to his joining the Army he had US Marine training from 1957-1959, and flew for Marine Air Control Squadron 9, Santa Ana, Calif. That was where he met Lee. He was stationed with Lee for about 11 months. While living in the same hut like barracks, Oswald would often be "gigged" (receive demerit) during rifle inspection. He kept the gun mediocre condition, and didn't share the same pride or enjoyment at the shooting range. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Nelson Delgado | WC TestimonyMr. DELGADO - "...As I said to the men that interviewed me before, we went to the range at one time, and he didn't show no particular aspects of being a sharpshooter at all." Mr. DELGADO - "With respect to his rifle. He didn't spend as much time as the rest of us did in the armory cleaning it up. He would, when he was told to. Otherwise, he wouldn't come out by himself to clean it." Mr. DELGADO - "He just qualified, that's it. He wasn't as enthusiastic as the rest of us. We all loved--liked, you know, going to the range." Mr. DELGADO - "Right; I was in the same line. By that I mean we were on line together, the same time, but not firing at the same position, but at the same time, and I remember seeing his. It was a pretty big joke, because he got a lot of "Maggie's drawers," you know, a lot of misses, but he didn't give a darn." Mr. LIEBELER - Missed the target completely? ------------------------------------------- Merriam-Webster Definition of Maggie's drawers 1 slang: the red flag waved across the target by a marker on the target range when a shot has completely missed the target 2 slang: a miss when scoring targetsWhen a shooter misses the target completely, the keeper waves a red flag across the target to indicate "Maggie's Drawers". Oswald would often get these misses at a rate as high as 2-3, out of a possible 10. He was missing the target completely. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Rush To Judgement | Mark LaneQuestion: Do you have a personal knowledge of Oswald's ability with a rifle? Delgado: It has been said that he was a terrific marksman, but at the range he couldn't prove to me that he was a good shot.... Well, in Oswald's particular case it was quite funny to watch because he would get a couple of discs, maybe out of the possible ten he would get two or three "Maggie's Drawers". This is a red flag on a long pole and this is run from left to right on the target itself. You don't see this too often on the firing line, not the Marine firing line.... Question: How did the FBI react to your statement that Oswald was a poor shot? Delgado: They tried to disprove this. They did not like when I came up with the statement that I thought Oswald was a very poor shot.
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Post by Michael Capasse on Oct 27, 2020 9:21:37 GMT -5
Take it BackNelson Delgado was visited 4 times by the FBI beginning in Dec. 1963. He told Liebeler, each time they came, they asked the same questions. Then testified they were trying to make him say Lee was better with a rifle then he had been telling them. They also tried to get him to say Lee was not very fluent in Spanish. We cannot know the tone or timing at which they are asked, and Liebeler challenged the FBI previous statements. He sharply quotes from reports, testing the witness to name the agent, and reading incorrect statements into the record. Delgado corrected him a couple of times. When the attorney quoted from an FBI report, Nelson quickly called out the mistake. Mr. LIEBELER - Did you get the impression that the agent was trying to get you to change your story? Mr. DELGADO - Yes. Mr. LIEBELER - He was trying to get you to back away from the proposition that Oswald understood Spanish? Mr. DELGADO - Well, am I allowed to say what I want to say? Mr. LIEBELER - Yes; I want you to say exactly what you want to say. Mr. DELGADO - I had the impression now, wholeheartedly, I want to believe that Oswald did what he was supposed to have done, but I had the impression they weren't satisfied with my testimony of him not being an expert shot. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Under the GunTwo months after he testified, the New York Herald Tribune had a feature on Delgado that discussed what he said. He moved his family to England, in fear the authorities may have thought he knew more than he said. Nelson told Jim Marrs, "....They attacked my competence to judge his character and shooting ability, and criticized my efforts to teach him Spanish..." Once again a witness that challenged the narrative became suspect, and must be vilified. Time and time again, money and resources in this investigation was spent on discrediting statements. FBI made repeated visits asking the same questions, badgering and hounding the witness. Delgado was clear to the Commission, he was badgered and argued with the FBI agent for hours. In all the interviews he provided the agents did not correctly record his statements, and further insulted his ability to speak Spanish. When he said he would argue with the agents, Leibeler went off the record. Mr. LIEBELER - Which one of them kept badgering you? Mr. DELGADO - The Spanish agent. Mr. LIEBELER - What was he badgering you about? Mr. DELGADO - He kept on sitting--he'd been talking, he'd been looking at me, doing this [indicating], you know, and he was sitting just about where this gentleman is now, and I'd been looking out of the corner of my eye, because I couldn't concentrate on what he was saying because he kept staring at me, and he was giving me a case of jitters, you know. Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have the impression that he didn't believe you? Mr. DELGADO - Yes. But I told him, it's all right in the textbooks, that's fine... If you come, a fellow comes and tries to be friends with you, and he is giving you all these thees and thous, first of all you are not going to hit it off right. Speak like they do. If they say damn; say damn, you know, get with them. Mr. LIEBELER - You and this agent did not strike it off too well? Mr. DELGADO - No, I am afraid not. We just spent hours arguing back and forth. Mr. LIEBELER - Off the record. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Memo: Hoover to Rankin | June 18, 1964 The "New York Herald Tribune" for June 14, 1964, contained an article by Dom Bonafede entitled 'What Oswald's Marine Buddy Told Probers." The article reports that Nelson Delgado, a Specialist Fourth Class now serving in the Army at a New Jersey missile site, told a Staff Counsel of the President's Commission that the FBI "badgered" him for what be believed was an attempt to distort the nature of his testimony.
The article further reported that in essence, Delgado's testimony recapitulated, with clarification, what he had earlier told the FBI, plus the contention the Agents sought to deflate his story, particularly his statements that be taught Oswald to speak adequate Spanish and that Oswald was not an expert marksman.------------------------------------------ Mr. Rankin: …there are a good many stories about his practicing with a gun, you know, around various rifle ranges and so forth, we have checked those out and none of them stand up at all.
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