Follow the Footnotes: 7.65 Mauser

Michael Capasse
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Follow the Footnotes: 7.65 Mauser Apr 19, 2019 10:50:36 GMT -5 Arjan Hut likes this

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Post by Michael Capasse on Apr 19, 2019 10:50:36 GMT -5

I'm considering a series called "Follow the Footnotes," posting footnote references from the WCR that cannot confirm whatever open question is being asked in
"Appendix 12: Speculations and Rumors."

Pay attention to the timeline the Warren Commission is up against. They want to be finished by July 1st 1964.

There are specific time setbacks in their process, March, June, and August 1964.
In these months questions came up on key items, that each time, had to be confirmed .

In March they were scrambling for TSBD evidence from co-workers and the curtain rods, the package etc.

In June it was trying to button down the SBT, it was the FBI trying to confirm the stretcher bullet, chain of evidence for the final report.

Also in June there was a call to ALL FBI to gather ALL JFK evidence with a confirmed CoE.

By August there are still many open items and so Appendix 12 was created as a place to address these concerns.

One by one they are listed as "Speculation" and answered as a "Commission Finding."

The finding has footnote references that are often times circular or simply imprecise.

Regarding a 7.65 Mauser being found, what actual reference of fact does the WC use to conclude none was found?

I follow the footnotes from the 900 page summary on a wild goose chase thru the 26 volumes to a circular solution..."it is said here; because we said it here..."

Let us see:

7.65 Mauser 1909 sniper rifle

WCR page 646
Speculation.--The rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository was identified as a 7.65 Mauser by the man who found it, Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman.

Commission finding.--Weitzman, the original source of the speculation that the rifle was a Mauser, and Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone found the weapon. Weitzman did not handle the rifle and did not examine it at close range. He had little more than a glimpse of it and thought it was a Mauser, a German bolt-type rifle similar in appearance to the Mannlicher-Carcano. Police laboratory technicians subsequently arrived and correctly identified the weapon as a 6.5 Italian rifle. 31

The last line is the solution, right?..it's what we're looking for:
"Police laboratory technicians subsequently arrived and correctly identified the weapon as a 6.5 Italian rifle." right?

so for that we go to:
footnote ref. 31 is: See supra, pp. 79, 81

Last Edit: Dec 26, 2020 19:28:09 GMT -5 by ADMIN

Michael Capasse
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Posts: 2,131

Follow the Footnotes: 7.65 Mauser Apr 19, 2019 10:51:38 GMT -5

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Post by Michael Capasse on Apr 19, 2019 10:51:38 GMT -5

Let's carry down what we're looking for and start with page 79

Police laboratory technicians subsequently arrived and correctly identified the weapon as a 6.5 Italian rifle. 31

From page 79:
At 1:22 p.m. Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone and Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman found a bolt-action rifle with a telescopic sight between two rows of boxes in the northwest corner near the staircase on the sixth floor. 114 No one touched the weapon or otherwise disturbed the scene until Captain Fritz and Lieutenant Day arrived and the weapon was photographed as it lay on the floor. 115 After Lieutenant Day determined that there were no fingerprints on the knob of the bolt and that the wooden stock was too rough to take fingerprints, he picked the rifle up by the stock and held it that way while Captain Fritz opened the bolt and ejected a live round.116 Lieutenant Day retained possession of the weapon and took it back to the police department for examination. 117 Neither Boone nor Weitzman handled the rifle. 118

Oh look , as it pertains to the rife, more footnotes:

114 Found a bolt-action rifle.
3 H 293-294 (Eugene Boone); I caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I hollered that the rifle was here.

7 H 107 (Seymour Weitzman); That is correct, Boone and I, and as he was looking over the rear section of the building, I would say the northwest corner, I was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time he was looking on the top side and we saw the gun

CE 514, 515. Pictures of the rifle.

history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pages/WH_Vol17_0125b.jpg

115 No one touched the weapon.
3 H 293 (Boone); Some of the other officers came over to look at it. I told them to stand back, not to get around close, they might want to take prints of some of the boxes, and not touch the rifle

4 H 205 (Fritz); I told them not to move the cartridges, not to touch anything until we could get the crime lab to take pictures of them just as they were lying there and I left an officer assigned there to see that that was done, and the crime lab came almost immediately, and took pictures, and dusted the shelfs for prints.

4 H 257 (Day); I met Captain Fritz. He wanted photographs of the rifle before it was moved.

CE 718; Pictures of the rifle.

history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pages/WH_Vol17_0264a.jpg

see 7 H 161 (Richard M. Sims); Yes; I saw the rifle.

116 Captain Fritz opened the bolt and ejected a live round.
4 H 258-259 (Day); Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

4 H 205 (Fritz); After the pictures had been made then I ejected a live shell, a live cartridge from the rifle.

CE 141. picture 6.5mm cartridge

history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0269a.htm

117 Lieutenant Day retained possession.
4 H 260 (Day); Yes, sir; I took the gun myself and retained possession, took it to the office where I dictated---
(but he doesn't say when exactly he dictated this note - the time or date - before or after Vince Drain took over the evidence)

4 H 206 (Fritz); believe that that rifle, I didn't take the rifle with me, Lieutenant Day took that rifle, I believe, to the city hall, and later I asked him to bring it down--I don't believe I ever carried that rifle to city hall. I believe Lieutenant Day carried it to city hall, anyway if you will ask him he can be more positive than I.

118 Neither Boone nor Weitzman handled the rifle.
3 H 294 (Boone); I did not touch the weapon at all.
4 H 260 (Day); Yes, sir; I took the gun myself and retained possession, took it to the office where I dictated----
7 H 108-109 (Weitzman). I didn't look that close at it...

The closest we get to the solution is footnote 117 (Lt Day)

notice it says he took the rife back for examination - and we do not know when he wrote that note - date or time - it is not a WC exhibit.

Last Edit: Mar 5, 2021 10:16:10 GMT -5 by Michael Capasse

Michael Capasse
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Posts: 2,131

Follow the Footnotes: 7.65 Mauser Apr 19, 2019 10:52:00 GMT -5

Quote

Post by Michael Capasse on Apr 19, 2019 10:52:00 GMT -5

Let's carry down what we're looking for and move on to page 81
"Police laboratory technicians subsequently arrived and correctly identified the weapon as a 6.5 Italian rifle."

From Page 81 (and yet another footnote)
After review of standard reference works and the markings on the rifle, it was identified by the FBI as a 6.5-millimeter model 91/38 Mannlicher-Carcano rifle. 128

128: 3 H 392-393 (Frazier).
March 31, 1964

Mr. Eisenberg: For the record, this is the rifle which was found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22. Can you describe this rifle by name and caliber?

Mr. Frazier: It is a caliber 6.5 Italian military rifle, commonly referred to in the United States as a 6.5-mm. Mannlicher-Carcano. It is a bolt-action clip-fed military rifle.

According to the WCR The rifle was only correctly identified in the hands of the FBI. [11/23]
The report makes it sound as though the rifle was properly identified at the scene.
The WCR contains no proof of this.

Last Edit: Mar 5, 2021 10:17:29 GMT -5 by Michael Capasse

Michael Capasse
Administrator

Posts: 2,131

Follow the Footnotes: 7.65 Mauser Apr 19, 2019 10:52:28 GMT -5

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Post by Michael Capasse on Apr 19, 2019 10:52:28 GMT -5

I know I am repeating myself, as this also appears in other postings, but it is most relevant here.

Time and time again it is the FBI raising more questions than solutions in this case.

So it wasn't until it is received by the FBI in the early morning hours of 11/23

Here Boone makes it sound like there was a switch

London Weekend Television Special
“The Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald” (1986)

Gerry Spence - So as far as you're concerned at the time; that gun that you saw in the stacks was a Mauser isn't that right?

Lt Boone - At that point in time yes, sir.

Gerry Spence - And it wasn't until after a certain gun in the possession of the FBI suddenly turned out to be a Mannlicher.

That it changed from being a Mauser to a Mannlicher. Isn't that true?

Lt Boone - I would say that's an accurate statement yes, sir

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

No signed or sworn affidavit by any police officer involved in the finding of the rifle listed it as a Mannlicher-Carcano–only as a 7.65 Mauser.

Weitzman was never shown the rifle in testimony.
Neither Boone nor Wetizman marked the rifle.
Neither can ever give the assurance THAT they were only mistaken.

Day did NOT mark the rifle at the scene.
He can never give assurance THAT was the rifle picked up from TSBD.

Later
...An MC rifle is displayed to the press at about 6:15p Friday.
at midnight Drain takes the rifle (unaccompanied by any DPD) to Washington.

Vincent Drain [FBI]
Earlier in the evening, about 8:00 o'clock, the division chief had talked to me on the telephone and informed me that the FBI in Washington demanded that we bring them for examination the rifle, the revolver that was used to kill Tippit, as well as the different paraphernalia such as identification cards and other small items that Oswald had on him. I discussed it with the police chief and told him that we'd keep the chain of evidence intact and that I would pick them up there myself and wait for them until they were examined in Washington then bring them back. So it was turned over to us.

meanwhile
11/22 Boone had written 2 affidavits describing the rifle as a 7.65 Mauser.

11/23 Seymour Weitzman had written an affidavit and gives a report to the FBI describing the same.

11/24 Rifle returned to Dallas (around 11am).

11/25 Weitzman is still describing the rifle to the FBI (in writing) as a 7.65 Mauser.

"Police laboratory technicians subsequently arrived and correctly identified the weapon as a 6.5 Italian rifle."

We never did find it. The report is completely void as to whom it is or when they actually "arrived".

Last Edit: Apr 19, 2019 13:21:36 GMT -5 by Michael Capasse