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Post by Tom Sorensen on Aug 12, 2020 8:41:16 GMT -5
A quote from the original post: [T]he FBI did not bother to check out and interview the owner of the car, but instead interviewed and intimidated the primary witness, Mr. White, and for the first time the color of the car is misidentified as “red.” The witness taking down the plate was an older mechanic so there is no way he would have taken a 60s Ford Falcon for a finned '57 Plymouth. The possible confusion of the cars is explained in this two part video which also mentions how the red Falcon ties in with the Benavies (Tippit case) testimony and makes it clear why the incident had to be buried. Michael Capasse also did a post on this same incident. EDIT> Two part video no longer available on YouTube but can be found as one continuous video on BitChute, this link will take you there:
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Post by Arjan Hut on Aug 12, 2020 13:01:02 GMT -5
Thanks Tom! Besides the make and color of the car, also the timing seems to have been changed from what sounds like shortly after the shooting of Tippit to 2 PM, at which time Oswald was in custody - making this a 'ghost' or 'doppleganger' story, instead of a vital piece of information. I wonder, was it really Oswald (who by then must have been at the theater?) of was Mathers (36 at the time) someone who looked like Oswald? Mid-1940s?
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Post by Tom Sorensen on Aug 13, 2020 1:00:47 GMT -5
Arjan, the bungled FBI investigation says it all: coverup.
What I find most bizarre is that Mather would implicate himself in criminal activities by moving his plates to an other car. That is, assuming White is correct, it wasn't his Plymouth White saw when he took down the license number.
To me it looks like somebody is trying to implicate or expose Mather (and the CIA?) by "borrowing" his tags while the Plymouth is parked at Collins Radio where he worked (HSCA report). If the DP was somehow involved in the Tippit shooting (no doubt in my mind) it would have posed no problem to organize a car with tags that lead nowhere.
I tend to believe the driver was a look-alike although I don't see the purpose of destroying Oswald's backstory involving not being able to drive. Very confusing. Fact remains: Neither the FBI nor the WC could deal with it.
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Post by Arjan Hut on Aug 13, 2020 3:35:30 GMT -5
Arjan, the bungled FBI investigation says it all: coverup.
What I find most bizarre is that Mather would implicate himself in criminal activities by moving his plates to an other car. That is, assuming White is correct, it wasn't his Plymouth White saw when he took down the license number.
To me it looks like somebody is trying to implicate or expose Mather (and the CIA?) by "borrowing" his tags while the Plymouth is parked at Collins Radio where he worked (HSCA report). If the DP was somehow involved in the Tippit shooting (no doubt in my mind) it would have posed no problem to organize a car with tags that lead nowhere.
I tend to believe the driver was a look-alike although I don't see the purpose of destroying Oswald's backstory involving not being able to drive. Very confusing. Fact remains: Neither the FBI nor the WC could deal with it.
Nobody borrowed or switched the plates. White saw a 1957 Plymouth. The FBI turned it into a red Ford. White saw the car shortly after the Tippit shooting. The FBI pushes it up to 2 o'clock. White saw Mather's Plymouth, shortly after 1 PM, in the parking lot, near the site where Mather's friend Tippit had just been shot.
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Post by Michael Capasse on Aug 13, 2020 8:13:56 GMT -5
I watched those 2 videos - thank you for posting those.
I think there is a lot of speculation here, but one thing is clear. The FBI was avoiding asking key questions that needed to be answered directly, mainly of Mr. Mathers. I think there was a plate switch - I think the car White saw was the red falcon. FBI interviewed White - I think Wise wrongly assumed the car was the Plymouth based on the plate he searched. Wise did not actually see the car. White was an experienced mechanic.
It is amazing FBI avoided Mr Mathers directly, and only talked to the wife and how the report makes the assumption the Plymouth was at work. It is unclear which car Mathers drove to work by the intentions of the FBI. If Mathers has a high gov security clearance perhaps the FBI backed off. On the timing - I don't think it can be the real Lee. I believe the black car took Lee to the theater from Beckley shortly after 1p I think the intent was he would not hear news reports. So regardless of time - from after 1 until almost 2p - Lee is in the theater Whoever White saw was an imposter. It is possible Benevides saw this red car and the driver never did get out at the Tippit scene. That could be a reach.
So I'm not sure of the exact time of this thing - I tend to think it was closer to 2p. If the "Balcony Oswald" was taken out the back door of the theater as seen by Bernard Haire. That guy could be looking for his contact to get out of town and was hiding behind that billboard after the arrest. I'm not sure the timing is as important as the FBI dancing around witnesses to avoid the obvious questions. We have seen that throughout these proceedings when they are avoiding certain facts I believe it was the red Falcon - I don't think that can be mistaken directly from White to the FBI. I believe it was a Lee imposter, - and likely was Tippit's killer. Not sure of the time, IMO closer to 2pm
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Post by Arjan Hut on Aug 13, 2020 9:50:58 GMT -5
I'm going to quote Bill Kelly on this matter: The FBI agent who interviewed Mr. White confirmed everything that Wise had conveyed, but now, the 1957 Plymouth license tag #PP4537 is possibly “red,” which led Wes Wise to say, “The mechanic Mr. White may have gotten the color wrong, but the year, model and number are right, and Mr. White was an old man and may have been color blind or something. He got the year, model and license number plate right, and that’s a big part of the story.”There is no mention of "red" in the story until the FBI get involved, and while it is possible White got the color wrong, it is implausible for a 60 year old lifelong mechanic to mistake a 57' Plymouth and a Ford Falcon, which makes the FBI report suspect and not Mr. White's veracity. And White wrote down the license plate number so there is a piece of paper that becomes evidence when introduced in a court of law, and that number leads to the individual who registered it and a whole slew of other records and possible witnesses.But despite Wes Wise’s assurances that he wouldn’t be involved, the FBI did not bother to check out and interview the owner of the car, but instead interviewed and intimidated the primary witness, Mr. White, and for the first time the color of the car is misidentified as “red.” In addition, there is mention of a Ford Falcon, which, is inserted into the record by Mr. Mack Pate, the owner of the garage. Pate was the man at the El Chico restaurant who first tipped off Wes Wise about Mr. White, the mechanic who saw Oswald in the car in the parking lot. Mr. Pate was also interviewed further by Wes Wise and others, and noted that they saw a lot of police cars speeding by with their lights and sirens going. Pate said that he recalled hearing a radio report about a suspicious car, a red Ford Falcon seen in Houston the day before that was related to an assassination attempt on the President. And there was a Red Ford Falcon being driven around Oak Cliff at the time by one Igor Vaganov, who had arrived in Oak Cliff from Philadelphia and worked in an office adjacent to Jack Ruby’s Carousel Club. His wife had called home and said she was worried her husband, who had a rifle, was going to do something crazy on the day of the assassination, and he was driving his red Ford Falcon around Oak Cliff at the time of the assassination. In any case, the FBI inserted the “red” Ford Falcon into the documentary record, and now everyone who comes later asks about the red Ford Falcon instead of the 1957 Plymouth with Texas tags PP4537.( Read the entire post at JFK Countercoup) I remember once Kelly had a post with all of Wes Wise's contemporary (?) notes about this, I'll see if I can find it. Kelly called Wise in the early nineties.
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Post by Michael Capasse on Aug 13, 2020 16:18:04 GMT -5
I just can't imagine a mechanic mix up such an important factor as a red car red cars really do stand out....regardless.....
what do we agree on...
Lee was already in the theater from shortly after 1p?
The FBI handled this matter in their usual "duck and cover" manner.
I think so on both counts. It stinks, and the Commission never saw it, and they knew of Wise. And I'd bet Wise knew DPD well, he's a radio personality doing sports and local stories.
Perhaps the intent is to screw the color of the cars to throw the track off forever. It's like how they handled the Lonnie Hudkins "Lee was FBI" story - and all fell in to lies about a gag played on the reporter. Perhaps all leads no matter how small had to have been completely cut off. and there was some Dallas press that went along for whatever reason.
It's ok to disagree, but I would appeal one more time a red car really stands out
I remember a lot of cars (by me and my friends) I remember who owned the red ones.
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Post by Michael Capasse on Aug 13, 2020 19:44:22 GMT -5
Hey guys look at this... If you used a Ford Falcon with NY plates... would you want to switch them out on a day like today?
This comes from Thomas Vallee files.....it doesn't give a color though The most intriguing part of the Vallee story comes after the assassination.
On 11/28/63 the SAC of New York sends a teletype to J. Edgar Hoover.
Evanston, IL radio station news editor, Chris Hester calls his father-in-law,
Hugh Larkin, a retired New York City policeman and asks him how he (Hester) can get info on New York car with license plate 3110 RF.
The car was currently in Dallas and some connection with Lee Harvey Oswald.
The New York FBI ran a plate check and found that it belonged to a 1962 Ford Falcon registered to Thomas Vallee of Hicksville, NY.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sometime before 12/03/63 Bill Corley from NBC News in Chicago got from an unnamed lead -
that the man arrested in Chicago (Vallee) maybe somehow connected to Lee Oswald by the registration of this car.
Corley assigned Lee O'Connor with Chris Hester to assist. Hester called his father-in-law.
Meanwhile the FBI requests the NY Authorities to "freeze" and keep that information confidential
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Post by Arjan Hut on Aug 14, 2020 4:09:04 GMT -5
As a non-driver, non-car owner, I wonder, what would be the use of switching plates from one car to another?
I cannot imagine it was to convolute the case and confuse future sleuths? For that to possibly work, White, Pate & Wise would have to have been 'in' on it. How else to make sure that this piece of misleading information enters the narrative?
But for the FBI to convolute the case ... all it takes is to misreport some information that otherwise had to be dealt with properly. You see this happening throughout the investigation, a list of examples would go on and on.
Cars and licence plates play an important part in the Chicago-Plot story as well. According to Abraham Bolden the NY license plate was registered to Lee Oswald. I'm now reading his book The Echo from Dealey Plaza.
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Post by Tom Sorensen on Aug 14, 2020 15:37:45 GMT -5
OK, so I've viewed the video a couple more times and I understand how the narrator tries to resolve the obvious conflicts. However, the assumptions should always be kept at a minimum. This can be done by noting that the first mention of a red car is attributed to Wise in the Dec 4 report but we see no direct evidence of Wise (or White) saying so, like a newspaper clipping. As Michael has argued, and I 100% agree, there is no way an old-school mechanic would have not recognized a late 50s Plymouth. Further, if the car came back as a 1957 Plymouth when Wise ran the plate there is no way he would not have remembered White calling it a late model Falcon or Ford.
Since we positively know the FBI filed BS reports, we only need to assume they introduced "red" as a first step to confuse the record. This becomes obvious when the Dec 14 report says the Plymouth is reported as being two tone blue -- but we only have this from the FBI reports. Note also the tricks like stating that White "now believes", implying that he has changed his mind, and "believing" bla bla PP 4537, but he didn't just believe, he noted it on a piece of paper! Interesting that it's now a 1963 plate, also attributed to White (probably because it was and they couldn't bury that anyway).
IF the Carl Mather plates were seen on a Falcon it wouldn't be a problem to locate the Plymouth within the time window White saw the Red car, right? Failing to place the '57 Plymouth in space and time on the 22nd is strong evidence that was the car White saw and told Wise about. Mather may not have been aware that somebody "borrowed" his car.
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