C-SPAN3 History Frazier part 2 (2002)www.c-span.org/video/?287933-101/kennedy-assassination-buell-wesley-frazier-part-2This is second part of the interview. As in part one I've highlighted the minutes I consider the most important parts of the interview.
@10:00 The President had just been shot (at), time to grab a bite! Frazier has details on his visit to the basement I haven't heard before: Officers come down and ask if he's seen something, adds detail about conveyor belt and stair case. Post assassination lunch contradicts his HSCA testimony. Does he now add police officers to reinforce his story? Why doesn't he eat his lunch in the domino room to be close to the action and get the latest info on the shooting?
@12:50 No, he didn't see Lee post shots. Then there were rumors...and he now remembers seeing Lee coming down Houston. Despite all his explaining, within minutes of having not seen Lee he remembers a lot of stuff. Mack has him figured out and asks about the clothing. Note how Frazier answer: "Had his jacket on, he had his jacket on that day". I bet he mentions the jacket because he had the jacket on in the morning, so logically he would also have left with the jacket. Is all of this fabrication?
@16:00 Mack "regrouping", can't believe what he just heard!
@17:40 Piling up details irrelevant to the roll call, simply just happened outside of offices of Truly and Shelley.
@20:00 Reading off names wound have included Givens, so it doesn't make sense Frazier says Oswald was the only one missing. Truly said some of his boys were in the west corner of the shipping room...if a roll call had actually taken place why wouldn't TRULY have included it in his testimony to back up his story...?
Mr. BALL. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards?
Mr. TRULY. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn’t with them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short time before in the building, I noticed he wasn’t there.
But this is what the WC stated in their report, page 180:
Hill testified that Fritz told the detective to get a search warrant, go to an address on Fifth Street in Irving, and pick up a man named Lee Oswald. When Hill asked why Oswald was wanted, Fritz replied, "Well, he was employed down at the Book Depository and he had not been present for a roll call of the employees." 667 Hill said, "Captain, we will save you a trip * * * there he sits." 668
Note how cleverly the roll call is put in there...it's actually a quote cut/pasted from Hill which is confirmed by footnote 667/668 refers to HILL's testimony (7H59):
And I asked the captain why he wanted him, and he said, "Well, he was employed down at the Book Depository and he had not been present for a roll call of the employees." And we said, "Captain,we will save you a trip," or words to that effect, "Because there he sits."
So this roll call is pure hearsay as FRITZ in his testimony does not refer to a roll call:
Mr. BALL. While you were there Mr. Truly came up to you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; where the rifle was found. That was about the time we finished Mr. Truly came and told me that one of his employees had left the building, and I asked his name and he gave me his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, and I asked his address and he gave me the Irving address.
OK, so we're back to Frazier who in the interview explicitly states that names were read out, that's a roll call, but this is what he told the WC:
Mr. BALL - You never went back to work?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; we didn't. I didn't work any more that day.
Mr. BALL - You stayed there on the job until you were told to go home?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What time did they tell you to go home?
Mr. FRAZIER - It was between 1 and 2 there sometime, roughly, I don't know what time it was.
Mr. BALL - Had the police officers come in there and talked to you?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; they come in and talked to all of us. They asked us to show our proper identification, and then they had us to write our name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see us.
[So whoever are present provide their names, names are not read out]
Mr. BALL - Did they ask you where you had been at the time the President passed?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; they had. I told them I was out on the steps there.
Mr. BALL - Asked you who you were with?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I told them and naturally Mr. Shelley and Billy vouched for me and so they didn't think anything about it.
[So he's clear...but how strange SHELLEY does not ask about Oswald as Frazier would be the one to go to, especially on a Friday, Lovelady would know that!]
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I didn't.
[Nobody asked for Lee....roll call?]
Mr. BALL - At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for Lee?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home.
[Nobody asked for Lee....roll call?]
Mr. BALL - Then you went on home?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
[Although not directly home]
Representative FORD - Did all this occur after you had finished your lunch?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it did.
Based on the evidence that roll call is busted and the WC knew it so putting the Hill quote in the report is pure deception.
@20:50 So when was "first"? Logically, this would have been at the roll call and later it was considered suspicious that Oswald was missing.
@21:40 Frazier realizes that Mack has trapped him. If the roll call actually took place and Oswald was missing is it likely that Truly would not have mentioned he just saw Oswald on the second floor? The Lunchroom Encounter is all in the WC report so Frazier's way of bailing out is extremely weak.
@22:30 Again, touching face, calculating. Counselor Ball was faced with the same problem: Truly's estimate of having reported Oswald to Fritz within 15-20 minutes of the shooting makes no sense, so Ball tried to push Truly well past 1 PM to meet the Fritz estimate of around 1:30. That just didn't work so the whole roll call thing also falls apart timewise.
@25:05 This whole hospital deal about his stepfather coming up and he's already showing stress. The mother had stayed for several weeks because of her husband being hospitalized so why does Frazier start out with a one or two day admission?
@29:50 Timing trouble mounting for Frazier as Mack keeps asking questions and he's well prepared for this one. Basically Frazier is hours off -- the interview speaks for itself.
@32:10 But this means Rose/Stovall would have been the the Randle home BEFORE showing up at the Paine house. This also means their story about being told Frazier was at Parkland could not be true if they could go directly to the Irving clinic and pick up Frazier.
@38:30 Mack continues to push Frazier off the cliff on the Oswald/Frazier connection leading to his arrest. Frazier is now winging it, coming up with stuff he heard on the radio but he would have had to be driving his car while he was being arrested as the info he refers to was not released in time for him to have heard it.
@41:35 Cut! Probably to save him from complete humiliation.
Rest of interview basically goes over the same old ground, not much more to be picked up.
BRIEF NOTES TO INTERVIEW
00:30 The shooting...
02:35 Three shots and timing.
03:40 Last two shots, looong pause, ear scrating.
05:00 When did the shooting begin?
07:00 Reaction to first shot.
07:15 Lovelady and Shelley.
08:00 remained on steps, but may have left steps and returned.
09:05 Lovelady and Shelley further down the street and disappeared.
09:50 Back into the building.
10:00 Hungry, usually hungry!
10:20 Down into the basement.
10:30 Detectives, police officer asks BWF if he saw anyone down there!
10:50 Basement details.
11:20 Mack lose interest in the basement, back on the stairs, clothing (the Prayer Man thing).
12:40 Did BWF see Oswald after the assassination? Thinking...NO!
12:50 Rumors...touching face...thinking.
13:10 Beside the building, before going in, did see Oswald. One minute ago he said NO!
13:50 Lee lost in the crowd.
14:50 Out the front? NO!
15:40 Probably went for a sandwich, jacket on!
16:00 Mack recaps: into basement, they(!) asked if he saw anybody, but who were they?
17:00 Any strangers in the building that day? NO.
17:20 Rest of the day...
17:40 Roll call outside Shelley's office...rants about 1st floor layout, excessive detail, diversion?
19:15 Grouped for roll call.
20:00 Reading off names? Yes, only person missing was Lee Oswald. FAIL, givens was not there!
20:20 Recap roll call...
20:50 Lee probably went for a sandwich...nothing was made of it FIRST! Stayed there only a short time, then left.
21:10 Stayed there only a short time after the roll call. Lee wasn't coming back, shut down, call it a day.
21:40 Had Truly had seen Oswald....now what?! Picking his ear thinking HARD.
21:45 Truly was there...I have heard yada-yada, but it's all in the WC report, right?
21:55 Picking ear, preparing for the lunch room thing.
22:12 Mack confirms the lunchroom encounter...
22:30 Roll call timing, 30-45 minutes after the shooting.
23:00 Work ended, when did BWF learn the president had died?
23:20 On his way home.
23:55 Expecting to go home with Lee?
24:15 No, as agreed.
24:25 Never lied, no reason to be suspicious.
24:32 Note movement of mouth, sign of disgust. Did Oswald actually lie to him although not specifically in this situation?
24:45 Mack tries to bait him: You're on your way back home? Yes, plays along!
25:00 When he got home...who were there?
25:05 Now what?! Adrenaline kicks in => deep breath!
25:08 Didn't go directly home...stopped by hospital to check on stepfather.
25:25 When was he admitted? BWF starts out with 1-2 days, a bit shaky, it was weeks in the WC hearings.
26:15 Which hospital? Irving blvd and Pioneer.
26:40 Time spent at hospital before he went home? (Mack of cause knows he didn't go home)
26:50 Correction: btw he didn't go home ;-)
27:30 Phone call to BWF.
27:50 To nurses station, met by Rose and Stovall.
28:15 Frisked, now getting emotional.
28:40 Leaving, car had been searched.
29:00 Why taken in....strangly imprecise, fast forward to Rose & Stovall becoming his friend!
29:50 Mack:Timing? 1:30 - 2:00 PM.
30:30 Mack not buying that since he knows this is way too early according to Rose & Stovall.
30:40 Mack: JFK death announced 1:30 (radio). BWF arrives 2PM at the latest, Rose/Stovall appears 2:15PM at the latest.
31:15 Going over time line...
31:30 Suggestions by BWF doesn't work if R/S got his location from LMR.
31:55 Now BWF adds a phone call to LMR from the hospital to make this work...this is a first! What else did they discuss?
32:10 Now remembers they (Rose/Stovall) came to the Randle house BEFORE going to the hospital...
32:13 Pronoun "I-I-I" stuttering, bad sign. How would he "remember" that, if he wasn't there?
32:20 Mack doesn't buy his story...possibly bad memory? "I don't think so, Gary" ;-)
32:40 BWF recaps, rationalizing how he got there fast...some sentence break up like "v-very long", he's trying to work it out on the fly, red flag. 10-15 minutes at the most before being picked up.
33:18 Mack not satisfied! Tries another approach working backwards from when Oswald was brought in.
33:30 2:00PM, moving on...who would have connected Frazier with Oswald? Clever line of questioning!
33:50 Billy (Lovelady) and Shelley knew [he was driving Oswald].
33:55 Silence!
34:00 Mack: Hmmmm! Truly and Shelley were the source?
34:10 Clever move by BWF: Check with Rose and Stovall! Great recovery...he must stick to his story.
34:40 Friends...wrong place at the wrong time...got their cards. Why would someone ask him "about that"?
36:36 From the hospital in Irving to Dallas.
37:00 Back again.
37:25 Other names? NO. Adamchik? NO. Diverts into country boy rant...
38:30 First realization of JFK connection? Wrong answer as Rose/Stovall did not refer to Oswald.
38:55 ...and Oswald being involved?
39:35 Radio, best lead (suspect) was Lee Oswald. Drifts into nice-guy-Lee rant.
40:25 Mack knows this can't be true as Oswald's name was not out prior to his arrest and not prior to 2PM...ouch!
40:35 BWF tries to bluff his way out...
41:15 Before BWF arrived at the hospital? YES.
41:22 BWF knows it doesn't hold up...hand waiving.
41:35 Cut, saved by the bell! 41:36 DP interrogation...sticks to his usual story.
43:10 Connection to assassination...story about hospital repeated.
44:30 Handcuffs.
45:00 Did Oswald bring something with him? Slight pitch raise...doesn't seem comfortable going over this again, "um-um...I'm sure they did...um", stalling.
45:13 Finger...he's slightly stressed about this Rose/Stovall incident, why?
45:50 First aware of rifle possibly in his car?
46:08 at the interrogation...no real details.
47:00 Package story one more time...
47:13 Cuts right to entering his car. Good defensive move.
47:45 Size, shape etc...two feet...good flow, relaxed.
48:50 Cut, bag controversy...holds up well.
49:40 Lee's attitude on the way to work...nothing suspicious.
51:00 The bag controversy, recap.
52:00 Can be resolved? Length etc. nothing new, all speculation.
54:00 Cut, Sunday morning...
54:55 Oswald shot, reaction? Breathing...then a bit strange response: "Well, I was kind of sad...", hoped this could be cleared up.
55:35 Did he do it? Really goes nowhere...BWF stays out of wild speculation...drift into the nice-to-kids arguments.
58:00 A bit of a philosophical lecture.
59:10 What is the correct answer? Likely didn't do it. Premature cut!